India-Pakistan nuclear war would spell global calamity: study
April 8th, 2008 - 2:03 pm ICT by admin
- By Parveen Chopra
New York, April 8 (IANS) A brief nuclear war between India and Pakistan would rip apart the ozone layer and unleash global devastation - killing millions, besides triggering catastrophic health problems, according to a study by US scientists. Using sophisticated computer modelling, University of Colorado scientists Micahel Mills and Owen Brian Toon have showed that a nuclear war between the two South Asian neighbours, involving 100 Hiroshima-sized nuclear devices, would ignite urban fires and blast five million tonnes of soot 80 km into the air.
The soot would absorb enough solar radiation to heat surrounding gases, setting in motion a series of chemical reactions that would break down the stratospheric ozone layer, which protects the earth from harmful ultraviolet radiation.
“The scenario of a war between India and Pakistan was used as a representative of regional nuclear conflict, potential for which remains high with the increase in nuclear arsenal and the number of nuclear armed nations,” Mills, who led the study published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in the US, told IANS.
Mills is a research associate with the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics at the Boulder-based university’s Department of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences. Toon is the director of the department.
India and Pakistan are known to possess the smallest arsenals of the eight nuclear-armed powers. India has about 60 nuclear devices and Pakistan under 50. A nuclear exchange involving a hundred 15 kiloton, Hiroshima-type weapons is only 0.03 percent of the total explosive power of the world’s nuclear arsenal, Toon said.
Mills said their research found that the catastrophic impact from even a small nuclear conflict would be much larger than estimated earlier from a bigger nuclear war, when simulation was not that sophisticated. The indirect human casualties elsewhere in the world would be many times more than those who actually die from the war.
“We would see a dramatic drop in ozone levels that would persist for many years,” he said. “At mid-latitudes the ozone decrease would be up to 40 percent, which could have huge effects on human health and on terrestrial, aquatic and marine ecosystems.”
The upper stratosphere, heated by massive smoke injections, would accelerate catalytic reaction cycles, particularly reactions of nitrogen oxide gases that destroy ozone.
“By adopting the Montreal Protocol in 1987, society demonstrated it was unwilling to tolerate a small percentage of ozone loss because of serious health risks,” said Toon.
“But ozone loss from a limited nuclear exchange would be more than an order of magnitude larger than ozone loss from the release of gases like CFCs.”
The ozone losses predicted in the study are much larger than losses estimated in previous “nuclear winter” and “ultraviolet spring” scenario calculations following nuclear conflicts.
A 1985 National Research Council Report in the US predicted a global nuclear exchange involving thousands of megatons of explosions, rather than the 1.5 megatons assumed in the Mills-Toon study, would deplete only 17 percent of the Northern Hemisphere’s stratospheric ozone, which would recover by half in three years.
But the new study said ailments like cataracts and skin cancer, as well as damage to plants, animals and ecosystems at mid-latitudes would likely rise sharply as ozone levels decreased and allowed more harmful UV light to reach earth.
Mills said the next step for researchers would be to study the biological impact of the nuclear war scenario, which will damage all organisms, on land and on ocean, thus polluting the food chain.
Related Stories
- Life under threat as more ultraviolet radiation to hit earth - Sep 07, 2009
- Global warming may delay recovery of stratospheric ozone - Feb 05, 2009
- Ozone hole in 2008 is larger than last year - Oct 08, 2008
- Ozone layer changes may increase UV radiation in tropics - Sep 16, 2009
- Wildfires can boost ozone pollution to levels that violate health standards - Oct 10, 2008
- Cut soot, slow climate change: Scientists - Oct 13, 2009
- Climate change will lead to less ultraviolet radiation over northern high latitudes - Sep 16, 2009
- Ethanol-powered vehicles generate more ozone than gas-powered ones - Dec 15, 2009
- Ozone hole just got bigger this year - Oct 08, 2008
- 'Laughing gas' leaves ozone layer in splits - Aug 28, 2009
- asian neighbours- - catastrophic impact
- - colorado scientists
- - explosive power
- - harmful ultraviolet radiation
- - human casualties
- - india and pakistan
- - india pakistan
- - national academy of sciences
- - nuclear armed nations
- - nuclear arsenal
- - nuclear conflict
- - nuclear devices
- - nuclear exchange
- - oceanic sciences
- - proceedings of the national academy of sciences
- - setting in motion
- - solar radiation
- - space physics
- - stratospheric ozone layer
Posted in Uncategorized, |
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:06 pm
if war begans between india and pakistan then surely pakistan will win… pakistans air force is very strong and hold a top position then india …pakistan name in the list is at 2 number and of india is on 5 … so india will surely sux balls of pakistanis
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I dont who this guy Sunil James is, but he must be a sucker to believe what he is saying is right. Dude, save your balls and run if you are a PAKI, they and loads of others around you will be on fire and will be toasted by eagles if there is a War. Pakistan may not exist. for sake of peace, I will pray there is no war and you pray to protect yourself and other idiots and uninformed assholes like you.
December 25th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
hey man look who’s talkin’.I am tellin u india’s gonna suck big time’s because they are quite deficient in armed resources.I think both the countries are coward enough to use nucleur weapons..the weapons of mass destruction…but of course pakistan would be a clear winner with the support of afghan talibans….and numerous suicide bombers.including..ME. ;) :D
so i tell u protect your F***** balls,xxx from busting.may GOD BLESS U.
sincerely don corleone…with an offer u cant refuse…
December 27th, 2008 at 2:01 am
pak sux…!!
December 27th, 2008 at 2:04 am
1 of the waste part of world
December 27th, 2008 at 11:25 am
I know who will win ! guess ? who wants peace is stronger than who wants destruction ! history tells us Pakistan is a coward country who is under dictatorship of military and always creating trouble for India ! So allah is with India ! who wants peace ! so time will tell India will emerge as a super power ,as USA is f****d up now !
December 27th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I don’t think that you folks have a firm grasp of what we are talking about here.
Gents; This is not the Super Bowl Match-up or the NCAA Final Four. This is the death of millions of human beings just like all of us, the further downward spiral of the global economy, higher instances of famine due to ecological damage,
and higer instances of illness at a time when governments may not be able to meet requirements.
The Author wrote of a 100 Hiroshima sized weapon exchange.
Now employed against population centers, You are talking about 100,000 deaths per hit!! That’s 10 million day one, Over the next 2 weeks tripple that figure for radiation sickness and burns. Then there is the Famine that follows. India and Pakistan have a combined population of 1.3 billion people.
How will the World respond to such a catastrophe???
And NO!! I am not a “Liberal”
I am a Soldier in my 5th combat engagement! I was in Somalia and know what a pain a releif operation can be with out radiation and a Billion Starving people.
So.. Who looses in a PAK-IND Exchange????
WE ALL LOOSE!! AND BIG!!!
THIS ONE SCARE US!!!
January 3rd, 2009 at 7:26 am
Stupid Question who will win the War… F**kistan will Lose & Ther is No Dout… Indian will Smash ur Base.. like a Right Click on the Mouse…
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Sujit:
It is good to love your people and show pride for your country.
But, that level of anger and hatred will get neither the Indian or Pakistani people any where.
You have to be cooler headed!
Besides, I really don’t think that you are one of the guys who will be doing the killing and dying.
That’s also a good thing.
You see, Wars are an easy and exciting thing for those who watch on them CNN, but for those of us who have the burden of conducting them, they are terrifying and dark.
So, maybe you might back off of the saber rattling and tough talk.
Let’s just be cool! And Let’s hope the Pakistanis and Indians do the same.
Why can’t we just… be cool?
January 4th, 2009 at 3:07 am
sujit pakistanis will f**k indian’s & all those radical asshols in india this is for yaw all Rss Bjp Shiwsana’s crimenals In cas of war hindus will be wiped out of plnet earth.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:41 am
you know as a diasporadic bharatan i see these desputes as an internal matter and as such am glad we have not had worse naxal and gang related or other terrorist type bad things going on, all in all great xmas apart from gaza and thai nightclub anyway love you jubbleys! c u next time u look my shop! hahaha nuke is a bad idea for everyone and ghandi definately was not into them i dont think.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Why talk war between India and pak.India wants the terrorist to be wiped out not the Pakistanis.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Foolish itis to think about nuke war, as no body is going to use it, as if it is used, even china, bangaladhesh, srilanka will be also affected, and they wll not allow to do any think,
for the time tested, it is useless to talk about he weapon,but who use it is more important, for examble, Israel uses F6 and succeeds, but Pakistan failed, Irag had Mig but it failed but India did it.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Hats off to Mr. D Weaver who is calmly trying to explain the reality if any war begins between 2 countries, esp. with nuclear power. Others being heated up and talking in anger is easy. But war is a reality, it is always a catastrophe. Who knows you may be the ones who would be shattered first! So, let us keep pur fingers crossed for a peaceful world, Ameen.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:44 am
if the war broke out. u all know what happen ……. billions of people in inda and millions in pakistan will suffer from great destruction. and nothing would be left no economy no beautiful places in both countries so lets not try of war. but if india try to do a mistake of surgical strikes or imposing war on Pakistan then Pakistan knows to respond well and…………
According to IAEA(Intrenational Atomic Energy agency) Pakistan atomic bombs are as far as four times more destructive then indian one atomic bomb. it means that our one atomic bomb or missile is equal to india’s four atomic boms. so beware India…….
January 9th, 2009 at 3:51 am
ya i completely agree with u if that mother f***** india will attack on pakistan then pakistan will f*** that india
January 9th, 2009 at 4:00 am
salon bhan chodon gandun bloody indians pehley apnay mulk kay geraban mein jhanko. bhan kay loron tmharay mulk mein ais waqt 100 say zada independence movememnts chal rahi hain aur meri bhagwn say prathna hey kay woh sari independence movements kamyab hon. Pakistan par hamlay ke sochna bhe mat kyun key Pakistan phir say tm logon ke gand mar de ga. Or han Kashmir hamara tha or hmara he rahey ga jis din josh aa gya aus din Kashmir hm lain lay gay or tm logon ko danda day dain gay.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:17 am
What a pity that faced with the prospect of death and destruction on such a scale, that humanity has not faced since the days of the conquerors from the steppes, like Genghis Khan, or Timur, most South Asian comment (with honourable exceptions like the Gooddoer or Nagamoney) is so utterly inane. Even children in primary school would be embarrassed at the tone.
Please think before you jump into print; we are talking about (D. Weaver’s figures) perhaps 30 million deaths, probably distributed evenly on both sides of the borders, lines of actual control, and so on and so forth. We are also talking about irreversible damage to the earth, with a possible damage to the ecology of all living beings which cannot be repaired.
And you lot behave like yobs at a cricket match.
Words fail me.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
bonobashi and gooddoer:
I was wondering when a reasonable person would chime in.
Sir, I simply can’s understand the depth and intensity of hostilities between these 2 civilized and great people. I understand the dispute over Kashmir and Jammu, however this does not seem like enough to risk an all out war.
Was there some unresolved conflict between Hindu and Muslim prior to British domination of the India sub-continent??
Thank You
P.S.
Depending on “Target Packaging”
My figures are solid. If a tactical target package is developed (missile launch facilities, air fields,etc) civilian casualties would be lower depending on target proximity to population centers.
On the other hand,the first striker would likely target in that manner but the retaliatory strike would almost asuredly be strategic in scope.
No one in the world can use Nuc’s!! even if you “win”….You loose.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:03 am
He he:)
Every indians has got two Bombs(BXLLS) and one Long Range missile(CXXK.
Now thing in case of WAR who will destroy whom?
January 14th, 2009 at 3:11 am
Bono: No point acting like a good buy! I will tell you truth…Irreversible damage to the earth has already happened the day ISLAM BOMB was promoted by ARAB. Now whatever you will witness tomorrow is just damage control.
*Religion is thing to HATE today, unfortunately none of them tech us hatred though.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
@D. Weaver
This is a very complex issue in history, and can’t be summed up in a paragraph or two. However, for what it’s worth: the immediate prelude to the independence of India and Pakistan was increasing disobedience of the rule of law through largely but not uniformly non-violent methods by the mainstream Indian movement for independence, and a growing parallel movement for a separate state for Muslims which became increasingly violent. The British felt that the Muslim minority would be swamped in a unified state and tried to give Muslims space in such a separate state. As a result, terrible violence followed, most of it concentrated in the two years 1946 and 1947, and crimes were committed on both sides - the Hindus and Sikhs on the one hand, the Muslims on the other - which ensured that bitterness and hatred would linger on for years after the partition of British India. To add to these troubles, the rest of India, which was ruled by their original rulers, was given the option, ruler by ruler, prince by prince, to opt for either nation. The people were not involved, nor were third options - of independent existence - entertained. This led, in three cases, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad and Junagadh, to anomalies, which led to further bitterness. The Pakistanis have never forgiven Indians for not allowing the sense of the rules, the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter of the rules, governing these choices to prevail; the Indians have been embittered by Pakistani attempts to determine the outcome by the use of irregular armed movements to overthrow what had developed in the corridors of power and was seen to be against Pakistani interest. It is impossible to sort out this mess in a normal, legal way; only an act of great statesmanship on both sides can bring a solution.
Regarding communal relations in earlier centuries, it is a hotly-debated matter, with intensely partisan views held by the opposite sides, and has led to the rise in recent years of a communal right-wing religious fundamentalism in India, which seeks to preserve Hindus from constant attack by more aggressive proselytisation, by Muslims on the one hand, by Christians on the other. It is not clear to moderate opinion why Muslims are seen to be converting Hindus. Their crime in the eyes of Hindu fundamentalists is to exist at all. Christian conversion, on the other hand, is a reality, but it is difficult to see how to hem it in and yet allow freedom to practice one’s religion at the same time.
Electoral support for Hindu fundamentalists was low, grew to a peak, and seems - thankfully - to be diminishing again.
There is a great deal of myth-making about each side by the other, 99% of which is due to complete misunderstanding about each other. The extreme views in these comment pages are not representative, and ought to be ignored: they are not representative of educated opinion. We don’t necessarily love each other, but we don’t hate each other either.
If you want to know more about what I have written, or about the years earlier, please say so, and we can discuss it by e-mail outside.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
@ love from India
I have difficulty with this proposition, considering that we were the first to set off a nuclear device, then the first to test military-configured bombs.
I am in no way justifying the antics of A. Q. Khan and the nuclear establishment in Pakistan, but this is a fact. Did we do this thinking that there would be no reaction? Pakistan had two options at that time, a typical reaction or a reaction of great subtlety and craft: they reacted in the typical way, fortunately for India. If this sounds strange or perverse, bear with me and follow my argument.
If they had reacted in a subtle and crafty way, we would still have been outcasts in international affairs. None of the economic boom would have happened; we would not have been allowed access to the software programmes and IT resources of Western nations. Try to remember that even a MAC was a banned item for India under the Department of Commerce rules. They (the Pakistanis) saved our skins with their subsequent testing.
Again, please don’t get me wrong; I am not for Pakistan being a nuclear state. The correct position is that I am for neither being a nuclear state. I think India can handle China militarily without the nuclear option, which we can never use anyway.
It is too late, but I wish we had never nuclearised the Indo-Pakistani relationship in the first place.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
bonobashi:
Thank you for taking the time to explain this.
I will research pre-British India. I think that Kasmir may be an opportunity to stoke the flame of conflict rather than a legitimate issue of national or cultural survival.
Again, Love of country and national bride are beautiful things, but every now and again we have to walk in another man’s boots. It does not look to me , that the Indian and Pakistani people are considering this. It’s a shame you know.
Thank You Again Sir:
January 14th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Enough is enough .The Pakistan
must be taught the lesson.Pakistan has maintained the polocy of bleeding India with thousand cuts since 25 years ( days of khalistan).
Cut Diplomatic relations
War must be imposed & Pakistan must be divided into 3 Regions .
Republic of Balichistan , NWFP & Republic of Pakistan ( Sindh & Punjab).
PAKISTAN MUST BE FLUSHED OUT WITH TERROT CAMPS.
If PAKISTAN does use Nuclear arsenals then Pakistam might cease to exist.Indian Armed Forces are capable of confronting the failed nation of Pakistan
January 14th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
@ D. Weaver
You are welcome, but it was a clumsy piece of writing - the history of the world in three short sentences - and didn’t really address your original point:
Was there some unresolved conflict between Hindu and Muslim prior to British domination of the India sub-continent??
Sorry I didn’t get down to that, but it’s complex, and there’s no way I could have compressed it. The short answer is, Yes, but not so intense nor so bitter that it needed to have resulted in this kind of fratricidal relationship.
We were unlucky in the way things turned out.
Good luck with your research.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
It is rightly said that in war nobody wins. If you go from person to person all over the world you will come to conclusion that 99.99% of us do not wish a war.The resources used in war could very easlily be used for the good of the masses yet here we are calling each other names using foul language for what….because we are slow poisoned over the years to hate and not love and live in peace and harmony. Just put ouselves away from the whole scenario and have a broader, wise look at the situation. If there is a war between India and Pakistan who is going to get profit out of it, not the two countries directly involved but those countries who are producing tanks, jets and other machinery, arms and ammunition and also those countries who want the two nuclear countries out of their way and the easiest way is get them both involved in a bloody war so that both these nations who are a threat to the developed world as geniuses both from Pakistan and India are taking over in their countries and are involved in research and development of the developed nations. So my point get them involved in a war so that they finish each other up and then some other country or a group of country will step in, in the name of rebuilding and humanitarian cause and then get out with more profit. Think about it before calling each other names, getting excited for nothing.
Its about time that we the common people rise to the occasion and not listen to the fanatics, fundamentalist, terrerists or our politicians even who are war crazy and think that they will get away with it.
Lets talk about peace that is not in the agenda of the countries who are making arms and ammunition and for the love of God lets spend our resoursec for the good of the human race.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:44 am
@kamal hameed bhatti
Makes a lot of sense.
The peace dividend that you have identified in India and in Pakistan is actually larger than we might expect, because we buy at western rates, at prices which are pitched far higher than our prices. If we stop buying arms and ammunition at these prices, and use the money in development of infrastructure, in health care and in education, we will spend only at local prices, which are a fraction of international or western prices. So we will save more and spend far more by such a move as suggested by you. I’m all for it.
February 8th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
The failed state of Pakistan is engaging in constant acts of brinkmanship, knowing that the Indian Leadership is old and weak. But someday they will make a mistake and India will be forced to attack.
The paki economy will not be able to sustain even 2 days of waar. It will implode & collapse under its own weight.
The eastern tribals will revolt. The govt will have no say. The army will take over, not to mention the taliban taking undue advantage of the situation.
Pakistan we know as a nation, will cease to exist.
February 9th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Inspite of everything the same type of attitude is seen in the comments of James who insists upone claiming that Pakistan will not be able to sustain even 2 days of war. Dear sir this time it is not going to be a two days war, it will be a push button war as both the nations know that they are not able to prolong war as the economy of both the countries are not in a good position and everybody knows it. So it will be an atomic war and as I wrote before in case of atomic war there will be no winner as this time the war will start and finish in a matter of hours, so Mr. James rest assured who ever you are and what wver are your intentions by provoking a nasty situation there will be no tribals, armies, tamils, nixel barries, mezo, whatever to take over as all of us will be dead if that are your intentions. As a Muslim I am along with my rest of Pakistanis are not afraid of death so be it lets have war for the entertainment of western, european nations so that they can relax and enjoy wathing on their tvs two great nations destroying each other so that they can earn more by doing humanitarion work as they did after they destroyed Heroshima and Nagasaki. As I wrote previously the developed nations do not want to see us prosper they will in the name of James or whatever send someone to ignite the flames of war so that they can have fun and earn as the state of western economy is before us where thousands and thousand of people are being turned out of their jogs and they need some activity to boost their dying economis.
February 10th, 2009 at 5:30 am
@kamal hameed bhatti
Regarding some facts which may not be widely known in Pakistan, or by Pakistanis:
1. Not every Indian wishes to see the irreversible destruction of Pakistan. What most Indians wish to see is slightly different.
2. Most Indians would like the Pakistani Government, including politicians like Nawaz Sharif (the late BB was also part of this when she was alive), to stop encouraging terrorism, by allowing fund-raising for overtly terrorist objectives, the use of Pakistani soil for terrorist training, and the support of the Pakistani organs of state, such as the Pakistan Army and the ISI under the Army.
3. Most Indians also want to see the end of terrorist attacks on India. Please understand the difference between 2 and 3. There may be an on-going dispute in Kashmir, but that doesn’t warrant launching terrorist attacks on India.
4. Apart from this wish to avoid the killing of hundreds of our innocent civilians, we have no harsh desires towards Pakistan.
Bearing these essentials in mind, please consider why there should be a nuclear weapon usage scenario at all.
It isn’t difficult for Pakistan to create conditions so that India turns its attention elsewhere, to other unsolved problems. At the moment, Pakistan and the Pakistanis seem bent on slapping us repeatedly in the face, with one round of assassinations after another.
You seem to be a reasonable person; surely you look at Pakistani blog-sites, and at Pakistani TV, and read Pakistani newspapers, all of which agree that terrorism does start on Pakistani territory, that it is funded by money raised partly in Pakistan, that it is given training space in Pakistan, that it gets bureaucratic and military support.
Does any reasonable Pakistani really expect that the world, including India, will continue to accept these attacks, and fail to retaliate in some way or the other, merely because Pakistan has the bomb?
Do you, personally, think so?
February 12th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
A Nuclear war cannot happen neither will the two countries want to do it.
One more thing, I am acutally surprised at the amount of bias that is run in today’s politics. Some Indians find it easy to blame Pakistan for everything, and no body has ever dared say anything to them (for what they’re doing in Balochistan using their “RAW intelligence agency.”)…
February 16th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Out of the lot, only D. Weaver, Bonobashi or KAMAL HAMEED BHATTI sound sensible. Rest of the lot on either side of the divide are gon cases and forget a comment - they deserve to be ignored.
As regards Hindu-Muslim hatred and the long history of minor skirmishes and major conflicts. It’s a typical case of-Pot calling the Kettle black. It is wholely senseless to blame the agressor if you allow and promote his/her agression wherther Christian or Muslim. Notable point is: both Christianty & Islam have undeniable history fully of gore and blood. In comparion Hindu history is shamefully of wishful thinking and avoiding harsh realities under some or the other pretext. In case of Muslim invaders, the erstwhile Hindus did it under completely false notions of chivalry or plain foolishness; against the British-both Hindus & Muslims jointly goofed. They exposed their internal differences to British-endowed with chutzpah and well versed in statecraft. If the crafty British took advantage, can they be blamed? Like it or leave it, the so called Mahatma [in fact - as fallible like you and me] did further damage to suit political expediency of his ambitions and to retain the mantel of saithood. Unwittingly though, the Mahatma made it easy for the crafty British to speed up and encourage Hindu-Muslim divide to their advantage. Hindu Indians accepted antics and so-called philosophy of Mahatma, but Muslims rejected it completely. Bitter truth is: While Muslims still itch to regain the soverign staus: as Victors who ruled Hindu India, the Hindus ruled and riled by Muslims wish to retaliate but aren’t ready to suffer the blows of fate bravely like Jews to emerge the victors.
So, to say the least, this debate is wholely senselss. In my opinion, if Hindus wish to emerge victors, they need more than innate intelligence, techno-savvy and infinitely honed sense of application. Hindus need to put their act together; gather more guts; be ready to suffer and sacrifice;and act craftly with cards close to chest. Remember, thinking Rusian and dreaming American life style can never take us anywhere. To be a super power, Indians must master statecraft i.e. - Be gentle with a gentleman and rogue with a rougue. There are no FREE lunnches and if Hindus are dreaming of desserts…they should stop singing ” De dee hume azadi wina khadga wina gham…”. KRV
February 17th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
@ali
My knowledge of matters relating to Pakistan was very poor and scanty until a few weeks ago. When I started following current affairs there, and in correspondence with very reasonable Pakistani voices of moderation, it emerged that most Pakistanis are able to point to mysterious and unexplained incidents of terrorism with no clear links to any of the normal terrorist groups.
In addition, there has been intense speculation about active arming and assisting of the Baloch separatists by Indian intelligence agencies.
I would like to react to this as an Indian citizen, proud of the honour of his country.
RAW is largely unsupervised by Parliament, and I believe that this should be corrected as soon as possible; the people of India should know what is going on and should know if any agency is guilty of acts of terrorism out of a misguided and utterly depraved belief that this is justified as a retaliatory measure.
If RAW is guilty of acts of terrorism, this is an act of great guilt and shame, and a blot on our escutcheon. I will hang my head in shame if this is so. I do not take refuge behind ignorance, and I believe there is a case for calling for transparency - in secret, if need be, to select committees, if need be, but transparency nevertheless - in intelligence matters.
I believe that support for dissident movements, as long as this support does not lead to acts of terrorism, is justified, if that movement itself has an element of justice in its demands. So long as Indian money does not buy bombs that kill the citizens of another state, so long as Indian know-how is not used to train terrorists, so long as India is used as a place of refuge without being a training camp for terrorist activity, as the Tibetan people have made it a place of refuge, I believe passive support is justified. If this becomes active aiding and abetting terrorism, we have a duty and an obligation to stand aloof from this, indeed to discourage this with all the strength at our command.
This is an individual’s statement, and may not cut any ice in the corridors of power, but I am reacting to your charge of insensitivity and one-sided bias in our attitudes and statements. If this is indeed so, then it is shameful and I condemn it.
@KRV
I understand your point of view, but respectfully, as a Hindu myself, disagree; i don’t think Hindus per se have any obligation to do anything, because there is no entity, national, legal or jurisdictional, that a Hindu has to defend, except, perhaps, places of worship and certain public decencies, the intrusion into public space of religious observances that are obnoxious to Hindus.
India is to be defended, if that is your meaning, by other groups. Not Hindus. The Muslim Indian has exactly as great an obligation, and has discharged it in full public view, as does the Sikh (who has discharged his national debt many times over), or the Christian, and he too has done what he ought to. Who is missing from the roll of honour? Jains and Buddhists are pacifists, but there are Buddhists who have defended the homeland and have paid the greatest price that any human being can.
Perhaps this could be better discussed off-line, as it is a Hindu with Hindu discussion, and may be boring for others. I hold myself at your disposal, if you wish to consider this matter in more depth.
February 17th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Dear Bonobhashi,
Thank you for your comment. There seems to be a wide gap in our perceptions.
My comment was with specific reference to ” Hindu-Muslim” divide and distrust.
By no stretch of imagination was I trying to pinpoint/apportion guilt or responsibilities.
My point was simple! YES-Non-violence is a great principle. Also accepted that - War cannot be a solution.
But I think you too will agree that one can talk of Non-violence only when one is capable of violence.
Similarly, when war is a must - whether overt or covert, we should not shy away from it irrespective of consequences.
Therefore, with utmost respect to all cncerned may I state here that good intensions not withstanding, what we do is more important that what we profess.
As regards off-line discussions, I take this opportunity to welcome you.
With warm regards, KRV
February 18th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
@KRV
Yes, indeed, from your response, there is a gap in our perceptions, and my initial reading of your post may have been mistaken.
Let me clarify that I am a pacifist, but not a votary of non-violence. That is to say, peace is a prime consideration, but not at any cost. Also, under certain circumstances, war is not only unavoidable, it is desirable. So, too, with respect to violence. Prevention of domestic, sectarian, communal and ethnic violence or atrocities perpetrated by one section or individual against others would justify the violent individual intervention, state intervening with counter-violence, or a league of nations intervening violently, if absolutely needed. Allowing ethnic cleansing, like Bosnia-Herzegovina, or like Rwanda, demands intervention. I am not printing it here deliberately, but in my personal opinion, there were occasions nearer home that demanded such intervention, which never happened.
If your point was that Hindus should pull their weight and take up a role in national defence matters, it is apt and I endorse it whole-heartedly.
Perhaps, before exposing you to a barrage of unwanted views and opinions, I should mention that there are certain matters relating to history which bring out somewhat prolix statements from me. Some of your remarks seemed tendentious at the time I read them; I have to admit that on re-visiting it after reading your last post, they seem to read differently.
Nevertheless, if you wish to clarify matters further, please do not hesitate to ask, for that matter, to challenge any statement or opinion of mine that in your view requires further explanation.
bonobashi@yahoo.co.in
February 19th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
The basic problem with Pakistan is similar to that of a jealous neighbour, who instead of rectifying his own misery, is hell bent on destroying the peace and wealth of the wealthy neighbour.
India by virtue of its policies and growth oriented attitude has grown to one of the stable economies in the world. Though India is abundant with its share of natural resources, it still went ahead and developed its true resource - Human Resource which revolutionised the ITES industry. Who or what was stopping Pakistan from achieving the same? was there any dearth of funding - since its “independence” it has lived on grants and subsidies handed down by the Arabs and US - from the Arabs they get the alms by crying about ‘Islam’; from US they get alms for their supposed fight against “terrorism”. One can even consider these dubious ways of funding, if only these monies are spent wisely. Where has all these monies gone - how many world class education institutes have these beggars been able to start?? Today the IITs, IIMs, ISB of India feature amongst the top in the world wide lists of educational institutions - where are the Pakistanis? With the same human resources, India could built a stable economy, but when one looks at Pakistan, one can only see terrorist mindset - people who are like parasites - unable to be productive themselves, they thrive to stop India’s progress as a way to hide their incompetencies.
If only in the last 50 years they had seriously looked at their own miserable state and tried to develope themselves in terms of education, and quality of life, they too would have developed cities like mumbai or bangalore or hyderabad, wherein the Pakistanis could have got employment and good quality of life. Instead the Pakistanis chose to do nothing for themselves but just pointing fingers at India. They thrive to destroy what the hardworking and visionary Indians have created. They can be rest assured that how so many times they destroy the growth icons of India, we Indians have the guts to resurrect these with much vigour and success. But, alas!, the same cannot be expected from Pakistanis - they are just sloths with little respect for hardwork and they hardly know peaceful co-existence. Since through war only these cowards and lazy lot can truely hide their incometencies from themselves.
Without a war or cross border terrorism, the Paki Govt has very little to give to its people. Because once the focus of the common people in Pakistan wavers from cross border unrest,they will soon start asking questions about economic growth, education, quality of life, etc., and for these questions the Govt of Paki has hardly any answer - cause they are too busy pocketing the grant monies and using these monies to safeguard the criminals of the world.
Hence the Paki govt will always try to keep its population busy with “war” and “terrorism” so that they dont have to answer the real questions of the Pakistani people…. questions which have been cunningly avoided all this while.
Its time for the Pakistanis to wake up and see the mud they have been crawling in since the last 50 years. Its up to them if they want to continue sloshing around this mud like pigs or they want to start living and start achieving!
February 19th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
@hari om
Unquestionably a passionate and well-argued point of view.
I congratulate you on your grip of the English language.
Just on a point of curiousity, this thread started about the consequences of a nuclear war. The exact same places in india that have done well due to our industry and forward planning, our long years of investment in education and our patient wait for the world to realise the value of our English, are the targets for a future nuclear attack.
I am afraid that even a particularly stupid military staff is unlikely to select Jhumri-Tilaiya as a target, in preference to Gurgaon.
How do you propose to guard us from the consequences of that?
It strikes me that continuously pointing out to Pakistanis how irredeemably stupid they are, how they’ve squandered their chances, how they are cowardly and incompetent, and are nothing more than sloshers in the mud may not sell very well.
Or is it your belief that speaking to them in a magisterial tone in an anonymous internet posting will settle the issue once and for all?
What is the point of your post?
February 24th, 2009 at 5:49 am
Towards a peaceful resolution of Kashmir problem
It is right time for the leadership of India and Pakistan to think outside the box in regard to Kashmir and its people. As the Kashmir-Line of Control (LoC) is the Line of Conflict (LoC), slowly, surely, and peacefully make it irrelevant for exploiters and bad elements on either side.
Peaceful resolution of Kashmir is crucial and critical for the present and future generations of the region. If Kashmir people’s issue is not addressed, the safety and security of over one billion will remain uncertain. The people in the Indo-Pak region and the rest of the world should always be of our top concern and interest.
Everybody, every leader, and every institution should take it upon themselves to exercise extreme care and caution. We all should avoid any provocative, inflammatory, and rancorous language, acts, and activities in and around the sensitive region.
At the same time, we and the world cannot afford to ignore the plight and aspirations of the people of Kashmir. These people have been divided by the Line of Control and\or the ceasefire line. Like the Berlin wall, it needs to be slowly, surely, and peacefully removed, erased, and dismantled by firm and resolute involvement of all. A courageous and bold action is needed by true, caring and visionary leadership of the region.
The people of occupied and divided Kashmir have sacrificed a lot in last seven decades. The multiple promises, pledges, and commitments that have been made to the people of Kashmir over the last six decades need to honoured.
As a Kashmir-born naturalised American citizen and having spent equal parts of my life in each of the two countries of mine, it is my inherent duty and obligation to comment on this matter.
The question of nuclear weapons should be only discussed for denuclearisation. The aim and focus should be to address the plight and aspirations of the people of Kashmir with the ultimate goal of erasing the Line of Conflict.
COL. A. M. KHAJAWALL (Retd.),
February 25th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Hari Om, the only reason why Pakistan is a little bit back is because of our corrupt politicians. In Pakistan, politics is a one-man show. Most politicians (not all), like to cater for their own needs. By the way, judging some of the certain things you said in your certain tone of voice, I will however strongly disgree with you in some points. Pakistan is a country that is only 50 years old, and even in that time range, we have achieved quite a lot of things in such a short pace of time. Compare that to India, which is a very old civilised country, you have always had a head start and this is the only reason why India is only a little bit more forward. For Pakistan, there is still a big potential to achieve, only if the people of the country themselves wake up (and the next generation IS).
By the way, you have described Pakistan in a “miserable state.” Well, let me make it clear now that this is not the case at all. In fact, our growing influx of professionals, doctors, etc and the IT industry which CAN be expected to boom in the future if it is only potentially given a look at, Pakistan has alot to achieve. Your ignorant comments do not make much difference.
Talking about educational institutions, as a matter of fact, there ARE very good ones being developed now and some are already developed. According to a source, there are some schools that are very good and have a curriculum that excells even those of overseas ones’. If you Indians keep on sticking ignorantly with the “blame-game” propoganda or using “terrorist” slogans for Pakistan, then I assure you that your bragging isn’t really worth anything because terrorism also happens and sponsors from India too. On January 30, there were 3 Indian agents who were caught in Lahore for plotting “terrorist attacks” with links to your RAW intelligence. Doesn’t that just clearly tell that India itself in fact is trying in big leaps and bounds to destabilize us even more?
February 28th, 2009 at 5:52 am
You guys are going great till now with every comments. But do you have any knowledge about PNAC (Project for the New American Century)?
If we will keep doing this by attacking each other then I think the bloodshed of our freedom fighters before 1947 will be useless.
I hope you (Both Indians and Pakistanis) understand the power of freedom. I’m an Indian and from my perspective, whole community is fighting in a Game started by someone else.
March 10th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
what they are saying is if Nuclear weapons are used the human race is in trouble…bottom line
DO NOT USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS if you study Nuclear Weapons or and WMD you’d understand this is not about Pakistan or India it’s a stat that says hey heress what will happen if Nukes are used
March 19th, 2009 at 1:47 am
Ths post started with nuclear disaster to some of the intelligent comments(ofcourse by the non abusers) by sm indian and pakistanis…..Watever the view of the pakistan abt india,india has been the victim of terrorism for the last many years…..Pakistan always cry abt the kashmir and killing kashmir civilians in bomb blasts and through terrorism is fair….Or killing of innocent civilians of india as in mumbai attcks…..So i want to ask sm of the very intelligent people out here that is the non violence is the ans of ths cowardly attcks….And for hw long….Nw pakistan is facing the tough time handing there own doings….They are badgd as terrorist country and on verge of economic breakdown…….Claiming big stakes here on internent dnt realy solve any problem…..Nt for pakistanis i thnk…..I hav seen people dying in frnt of me and to be frank enuf its no courage to see or handle death…..Death is dark as black with the red blood all around…..Ur eyes wide open with ur mind deaf as dead…Sm of the idiots here making stakes on there country and army dnt understand that those who fite are humans and hav family and children…..U dnt go out and fite bt those who go really knw the meaning…..The nly word of wisdon is that in war no one wins ….Wat for those who lost there lives in the war in 1948 1965 1971 1999….We forget bt their family members didnt……..For them the war is over the moment smone of their died…..And for those who making high stakes for war, if the war happnd any time may god get u in that to hav the taste death….
March 20th, 2009 at 1:49 am
Only one thing to say. No war. All people in this world are our brothers and not to sisters:. Enjoy life and any way when we die what are we going to take an go with us. So please stop all this shi* talks and live happy with your family. Its no way we should abuse each other.
Thank you my brothers from Pakistan.
April 4th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Good article showing the dangers of war. Peace is the only solution not not only in Indo-Pak region but all over the world.. Nuclear weapons have only made the dangers more potent. Lets stop blaming each other and learn to coexist
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
The intelligence Agencies of Countries create this rift . read the Articles of Mr.B Raman.He incites hatred.He spent his life in RAW warmongering against Pakistan.How can he now give up the belligerence?Peace cannot come to India and Pakistan unless black sheep like B Raman are not shunned. He is making a living from publishing inciting and seditious Articles ,not realising how much damaging these are to brotherly ties to both the nations in general and world peace in particular.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:50 am
For every B. Raman in India, there are a dozen Hamid Guls, Zaid Zamans, Ahmad Quereshis etc in pakistan. Moreover, it is a well known fact that the ISI is involved not just in terrorism directed against India, but Afghanistan, and to a certain extent, the west as well. It is a truism that 90% of ALL terrorist acts in the world have some association or link to Pakistan.
Pakistan needs to dismantle the terrorism infrastructure and stop hiding behind the equal-equal excuse that everybody is equally to blame. Everybody isn’t eually to blame. Pakistan is to blame for training, equipping, and brainwashing jihadis to kill civilians in other countries. This is a Pakistani-created nusiance that others are *responding* too, and not very forcefully at that, esepcially India. I wonder how the US would have reacted to these types of provocations. Oh wait, they did go and level two countries for two buildings, didn’t they! India’s response has been, in contrast, as restrained as one could possibly expect.
India isn’t trying to redraw borders with Pakistan, Pakistan is. And no matter how many wet dreams Pakistanis have about getting Kashmir, it ain’t gonna happen. Give up those wet dreams, give up your terrorism, and the chances of a nuclear war between India and Pakistan become as remote as one between Britain and France. But bottomline:
Pakistani terrorism is the root cause.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
I want to Gilgit where I met British tourists.I invited them over a cup of tea which they happily accepted. We had a very good chat, in the end they asked me one question”why are India and Pakistan fighting in Siachin where even the super powers would think twice before deploying their militaries. I replied briefly. both are stupid.It costs millionsof dollars per day to sustain forces at that altitude,whereas millions need a few dollars per day to remain alive.Leaqders of both the countries have fooled their countrymen.
I read a lot of Charged Indians and Pakistanis venting their feelings through abusive language.Little do they realise that it was always tall and fair ( Starved and poor) people from the North who invaded India.History repeats itself and if it does once more,sense may prevail. In Pakistan the tide is swelling eastwards. It is a matter of time only when the 20 century mughals from afghanistan shall sweep all over the south.The irony is that india is accelerating the process by helping the Northern Alliance. Can they not turn against India? why not after all India dumped the time tested friendship of the russians, to embrace the Americans who are well known and proven friend killers. i invite Mr. B raman to comment on this but I am sure he shall never because he is himself a member of RAW and for him reason shall not prevail.There is an answer to this problem.Both India and pakistan should respect the soverignity of esch other and the Intelligence agencies should stop fingreringbecause this leads to a vicious cycle of a Cold War like scenario.
April 30th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
This is in response to Mr. Bowman.
If every terrorist has a link to Pakistan, dont forget what is today Pakistan was once India therefore why Preclude India.
WHY WAS THERE AN INSURGENCY IN KASHMIR? why did india send its army to Sri Lanka?what was the outcome? a rifle But on Rajiv’s Skull and latter suicide Bomber killing the surviving heir of the Ghandi Family. why did it send its Army to what is now BANGLA DESH? Is Bangla Desh not blamed now for terrorism by India?
The only answer to this is that the Problem lies with India because India fermented this mess if you would like.
Indian Army is now in Afghanistan. Just wait and see what new mess this is going to create.Another Mughal empire - rest assure India’s own doing towards the undoing of India.You should not forget one thing- Like Bangla Desh Afghans are also Muslims, sooner or later they may turn on India and if they do, Pakistan will be over run to the Changhez Khans of the twentieth Century.. with Hordes of Barbarians and Aryans if you like, invading every thing you can imagine, from Bollywood to the arceology of India, and Pakistan woould certainly not like that to happen because that may again take centuries for another Independent Pakistan.So dear bow man please bow to Reason and reality if you are man enough. rather than stirring up an anti Pakistan hype, for that will not help, in any way. Remember only India and Pakistan can solve the regional issues not the Americans or the Russians or any other power, they shall only sell weapons and hasten our destruction. After all why are we sitting on posts at 21,000 feet in Siachin? Are these moountains made of GOLD? No Sir! because they sell high altitude equipment to both India and PAkistan. for which we pay exorbitant prices.
My dear Younger brother it is easy talking of wet dreams but even in the slightest of decency if you ever had a wet dream you would never have talked of it in a public forum. Unless you have been overcome by the lewdnesss of the internet.
It is easier to Abuse but difficult to reason and apologise. Only small men abuse , great men apologise and forgive, a trait of the Baghwan!
Please direct your energies to reason and not to reaction for that is what has so far led both Pakistan and India to the present mess.
April 30th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
@Ali
I want to say something which may easily be misunderstood, but I feel it is important, so shall say it anyway, in the sincere hope that you understand.
Don’t defend Pakistan when it is attacked. These attacks in the electronic world will not affect your country in the slightest. It is not a question of defending your honour either; the honour of Pakistan and Pakistanis does not need defence. I have been on at least two Pakistani blogs on a regular basis, as a commentator, and the high degree of courtesy and respect for my views, even when I made truly terrible mistakes sometimes, leaves me completely sure that you have nothing, absolutely nothing to apologise for.
There is no doubt that as a country, you had incredibly bad luck. Please understand that I speak here as a sometime history student, and with not the slightest intention of being sarcastic. You lost the lofty thinker who steered your country to independence within months; you were left to be ruled by terrible civilian despots who subverted your infant democracy and made it all too easy for the military to step in; you suffered no fewer than four military dictators, of whom only one had any redeeming features; and you lost two civilian leaders to assassination and legal murder.
With all this, the democratic and secular temper of Pakistan is amply visible in its voting patterns, on those regrettably few occasions that its people have been allowed their voice.
We have been systematically convincing ourselves in India that all Pakistanis are murdering fanatics, because of the terrible impression created by the single-minded campaign of certain out-of-control elements of your state which has made its living out of sponsoring and fostering terror. I am certain that the day will come when those elements will be held to account by the Pakistani people rising up in anger.
Democratic Pakistan has already shown its power in the Lawyers’ Campaign. What a wonderful mobilisation! As a fellow South Asian, I am proud of you. We had our Nav Nirman campaign many years ago, but what you have achieved is in some ways more unalloyed.
Now, with this in front of you, what on earth are you being defensive or apologetic about?
Having said that, I do hope that democratic Pakistan will soon establish a Pakistan that is for Muslims, and for those Hindus and Sikhs and - dare I say it? - even Qadianis who wish to live there, a Pakistan specially for the Muslims, but not an Islamic Pakistan. I hope you understand what I mean.
I hope that democratic Pakistan will get its military back to being what a military should be in any normal country; and I hugely hope that you will cut the ISI down to size, and bring it a stiff dose of discipline.
Now how are you guys going to do all this if you spend all your time defending a perfectly viable country which just happens to be going through a really bad time, and a perfectly decent people who deserve to be cut a lot of slack?
May 1st, 2009 at 2:12 am
Kaiser,
You seem to be smoking some heady stuff; I know that Afghan hashish is famed for its potency. However, if you want to discuss history and international relations, you need to put it down and sober up a bit. Aryans, Tall and Fair, Changez khans invading? On horseback? In the the twentyfirst century? Perhaps your Islamic calender says 15th century and you are confusing that with the English calender?
You are, as is usual for Pakistani, conflating a lot of issues. Bangladesh happened because *your Pakistani army* went on a genocidal rampage. They killed between 1-3 million Bengalis. Your muslim brethren (of-course, huge numbers of hindus were killed as well). They created a refugee crisis for India with upto 10million pouring across the borders. India had no option but to intervene. On the other hand, in Kashmir, even with 20 years of terrorism, not more than 50000 Kashmiris have died. In fact, more Pandits (hindus)have been driven out of the valley than muslims have been killed or made refugees. Look in your own Swat valley: they are saying that 400,000 have fled the fighting. And that has been going on for a few months? So stop comparing anything that happens in India to what happens in your wretched country; there is no comparison. Actually, China, or Russia, or Isreal, or Pakistan would have wiped off the 2-3 million Kashmiri valley muslims in no time had they such a problem. Look at what your allies, the Chinese, have done in Tibet and Xinxiang (against your own fellow muslims) Look at what Russians did to Grozny. Look at Gaza. West Bank. Bangladesh. Look at Balochistan where you killed 20,000 in less than 2 years in the seventies.
Stop hallucinating about India, put down the hashish, give up your wet dreams about Kashmir, stop the terrorism, learn to live peacefully as a civilized country, and give up the mysth about Islamic superiority. Peace will follow.
May 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
bowman
It is no use trying to communicate with a person who lacks decency and mannerism.Who is dreaming is quite clear,for you are depending on a lot of things which “seem to you” Afghan Hashish which you have quoted went with the Soviets and now I realise how you became aware of its characteristics, after the Indian Army went to Afghanistan. By the way I do not smoke.I have only tried to forewarn that if Pakistan were to disintegrate,where would the human flood of such un ruly people go to? To TIBET? I personally know a lot of Bengalis who HATE India now for its attitude towards them,how can you deny this.Love begets love and Hatered begets Hatered.
Hitler repeated the Russian invasion where Napoleon Faltered, leading to his doom.The Rusians repeated the invasion of Afghanistan where the then Great Britian failed and after which the mighty Empire shrinked.Brother Fools learn from their own mistakes and the wise learn from the mistakes of the others.India is a great nation, Pakistan is a new country ironically India has never made an effort to harmonise its relations and respect the soverignity of Pakistan. There is a need for all the regional countries to unite against a repetition of what the East India Company did to Bharat.Rest assure if you do not learn lessons from hiostory, YOU Shall soon become HISTORY.
May 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
bowman,
I suggest you read what the International crisis group has to say on what options India has in the present scenario.
Only a reasonable thought and a cool mind can succeed, The emotional madman is bound to fall.
May 11th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Kaiser
Dear Sir, Please could you have a look at my earlier post addressed to Ali? Thank you.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:44 am
Kaiser,
I am not sure what point you are trying to make. It appears you think that all of these people will somehow try to head into India. Apparently, Indian nuclear weapons and the rapacious army that is currently accused of raping 100000000000 Kashmiri women every second will be helpless? Apparently a population in the border areas (Punjab-500,000 muslims cleansed in ‘47!, Gujarat - under Modi natch!) that is, let’s say, less than enamoured of the faith of Mo will be helpless against these tall fair latter day Aryans swooping down from the mountains? Is that what you are saying? Because if you are saying these things without smoking anything, you do have a fertile imagination!
The original post I made pointed out that Pakistan is epicenter of terrorism, not just against India, but most of the world as well. Why this has anything to do with Soviets in Afghanistan, mistakes empires have made, fools learning from their mistakes, I do not know.
Your claim that India has never attempted to harmonize with Pakistan is typical of the Pakistani attempts at lies and deception. Vajpayee was in Lahore when Kargil happened. Advani has gone to Jinnah’s mausoleum to pay his respects. These are the so called fascists in India. You, on the other hand, keep sending terrorists over to kill and destroy as you did in Mumbai last year. You have been killing Indians in Kashmir for two decades now. You tried to stoke separtism in Punjab; many khaslistani terrorists still hide in Punjab. Dawood Ibrahim continues to be sheltered by you. Do you remember how, after the Oct 2005 earthquake in Kashmir, Pakistan refused to accept help sent from India because it had “India” marked on it? remeber, they wanted India to send material unmarked, because Pakistan could not have Kashmiris and muslims thinking that India was helping them? Remember?
And yet you think that it is India that is refusing to harmonize? I am really astounded at this lack of honesty and decency among Pakistanis. Your nation is lying, cheating dishonest, corrupt kleptocracy.
To repeat: Pakistan needs to dismantle its terrorist infrastructure. It needs to stop having wet dreams about getting a chunk of Kashmir from India. It needs to stop dreaming about bleeding India through a thousand cuts. If it stops doing these things, and puts its house in order, there is no reason why there cannot be good relations between the two countries where the need to think of nuclear weapons (remember, THAT’S the subject we are commenting on!) doesn’t arise. I really am unable to see which part of these statements you have trouble comprehending.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:56 am
Correction to above:
khalistani terrorists hid in PAKISTAN.
bonobashi: I don’t know why anyone would say what options India has; this ain’t India’s fight. And we all know what effect mention of India has in pakistan; it’s like waving a red flag to a dying bull: it will still try to charge, mindless of the fact that it might be wasting precious life force.
But let me guess anyway:
does it invlove handing over Indian terriroy to appease the Pakis?
Or does it involve leaving the borders undefended so that more terrorists may come over?
Does it involve some patronizing bullshit that India should improve its treatment of minorities?
It must involve restarting the peace process and letting bygones be bygones (i.e, Mumbai)? Incidentally, these Pakis keep saying “it’s all in the past, let’s look to the future”. This is Musharaff’s favorite expression I believe. Apparently it’s based on the Koran! Sufi Mohammed himself said that discussing the past is forbidden in Islam, since we may not remember what happened and be forced to utter untruths! You see this is why Pakis always want to forget about the past; it’s their “deen”!
Or wait wait, I know: it involves who India can or cannot have diplomatic relations with (Afghanistan)? That India must not have its consulates there, since it is Pakistan’s back yard?
If it’s none of the above, I would appreciate it if you could summarize the options here. I am curious as to what great new option has emerged!
May 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
@bowman
I am a little confused. The questions of options suggested by the International Crisis Group was raised by Kaiser, and I should imagine that it is appropriate to ask him for clarifications. Assuming, that is, that you have no wish to read these options directly, even for the sake of curiousity.
Another clarification: I am not Kaiser.
Since I have not raised it, nor have any proprietorial interest in it, I see no way in which I can satisfy you or answer your comprehensive set of questions.
If there is anything about my posts that arouses your curiousity, please feel free to ask further.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:28 am
bonobashi: sorry, I got confused and addressed it to you. Yes, it from Kaiser, not you.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am
@bowman
It isn’t a problem; the way comments and the name and identity of the poster are listed, a mistake like this is not difficult to make.
I hope kaiser hasn’t been put off to the extent that he is able to walk you through the publications he is talking about, or to summarise matters by informing you that you have omitted ‘none of the above’ as an option.
Speaking entirely for myself, I have found reading the source material of those with a contrary point of view most informative. But that is a personal judgement.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:57 am
That should have read,”…that he is unable to walk you through the publications…”
May 14th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Me Lord! Behold that proves my point, Mr.Bowman confesses that he got confused! Precisely why he is witch hunting for terrorists in Pakistan.
The issue was “Indo-Pak Nuclear war could spell a global calamity” Only sane people with balanced thinking can find an answer to forestall such a catastrophic eventuality.I am certain it shall be a disaster for India and Pakistan alone and a blessing in disguise for other powers who should rush in to fill the power vacuum.
If these terrorists had been of Pakistani origin, the Pakistani Armed Forces would not have launched operations against them, rather joined hands to exterminate a common enemy.I suggest Mr.Bowman display some chivalry to appreciate what Pakistan army is doing and in a way fighting to root out a threat which could one Day become a formidable threat for India aswell.After all these suicide bombers are no less than misguided missiles, who may strike any time , anywhere.
The issue is not how good Pakistanis are or how bad the Indians are.It is how sensible and responsible they can behave in the future.Why do we forget that Pakistan did not come from MARS. It evolved out of India,if it is only hatered that we show for each other, we shall fight each other till we destroy each other, obviously to the benefit of other powers,no power will come to resolve matters,they shall instead sell their weapons to both of us, not caring how many humans die.
it is for us to decide how we behave. If we curse each other and sow more hatered,who shall stop us from destroying each other?people who incite voilence? or mature people who act responsibly.
I am a research fellow in peace and conflict resolution studies and do not prefer indulging into irresponsible arguments of what the Pakistanis or the Indians did so far. I am concerned at the behavior which these would be great nations are going to display which will decide how great or small they shall be.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Kaiser, this argument is getting pointless. If you need to clutch at the “I am confused about whether it was you or bonobashi who made some comment” comment to pretend that I am confused in general, then, well, it speaks for itself!
Since you are also into the “past is past, let’s move on” variety I talked about, I guess I cannot point out how this exchange started! But I will anyway:
Kaiser pointed out B. Raman and suggested that he is a problem
I pointed out that the Pakistani states sponsership of terrorism and cultivation of terrorist groups to bleed India and Afghanistan is the problem.
Quite simple.
As far as whether the Pakistani army is truly fighting them, the jury is out. There is a huge reason for skepticism, not the least of which is that no reporters are allowed there to give unbiased accounts (this complaint is from the Pakistani press itself). So far, all of those huge body counts being bandied about seem like the usual lies and deception that the Pakistani army is famous for. Where are the bodies?
And they are using area weapons to level entire valleys and villages, after getting hundreds of thousands of people to move out, something that India has never done in all of the insurgenices it has faced. And today they gave advance notice to Waziristan that ops would begin in a month, so that the Taliban have ample opportunity to vacate?
So we have a long way to go before anyone trusts anything the corrupt terrorist Pakistani army says. I suppose we will know in several years whether they have really fought them or are putting on another “show” while Zardari was in Washington rattling the begging bowl again.
June 4th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
This world will end one day. it could be because of crazy extremist in any country or an idealist or some kind of natural disaster. what we should think is not who to disrespect each other or how to wipe them off the face of the world. no no no we should think about our legacy who would the universe remember us we humans are created with bits and pieces of the universe each containing a part of it i.e. iron, zinc, power, water etc …we are the universe or the universe trying to understand itself. What we do affects all. On a final note i would say “in the fullness of time we are all dead prepare for the next journey.
September 7th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Hi,
I am ready to face all the destruction, but that will be for once and forever. It is better to die once than to fear from going to the market or any place of social gathering just because of these f***ing terrorists, sponsored by Pakistan.
November 26th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
War is a calamity & catastrophe.
It must always be avoided.
Lets get our stories straight.
The hostility between India and Pakistan is due to a difference in belief.
Religious extremism is not condoled by Islam, rather it is condemned.
We humans(emphasis on that word) should respect eachothers beliefs and have mutual respect for eachother.
We Muslims should take up arms against our enemies only as a form of retaliation.
Open your eyes people, this is not right. We should not let anger blind us from the real truth. We should not let personal hate, spite and feelings get in our way. We should keep a cool head. Just take a deep breath and let it all out. Many people have lost their lives and their dear ones in this war. The only way we will ever get over this rivalry and loss is by being “HUMANE”.
The cause of all this, the root cause, is extremism. Please people, lets not act like animals. We all share the same sun, the same planet and how would we be repaying our lord(atleast we can agree over the fact that we all have a creator)by going to war.